SenseUPnP: Feedback Thread

FYI, update 3.2.2 will resolve MP3 transcoding which in turn will restore much of the Internet Radio and Podcast functionality over SenseUPnP, as well as locally stored mp3 files
 
Hi,

I have got problems.

Sense ver 3.2.2
Streamer Linn DS
Setting Upnp Compatibility Off (tried On with DSD Off, show track On and Off)
One Lan cable attached to switch.

Issue: songs in queue cannot play continuously. Stop at every song.
 
Setup: Zenith MK3 3.2.2 with Sense running on Mac Sequoia 13.3.1 (Sense on Safari Browser) and IOS 18.3.2
- UPnP streamer: Nagra Streamer
- Tested with running native upnp with JPLAY control point and Sense with network streamer enabled.

Non-UPnP: Running Sense with USB audio output direct to the DAC, everything works correctly, all file types and very stable.

UPnP (non Innuos) Running JPLAY control point running on my MacBook Pro and also JPLAY IOS on my iPad works fine with the same music library (USB external drive) plugged into the USB port on a 2012 Mac mini music server running Minimserver and also Asset UPnP (version R2025-02-03), and everything works correctly - so I know the latest MAC version of Asset UPnP runs correctly and with the JPLAY the music server - Control Point and Nagra streamer all work ok.

When I turn off the Mac mini and go to the Zenith MK3, I've tried both native UPnP enabled (using JPLAY as the control point), and then with my preferred setup would be using using the Sense app with the Nagra streamer selected for a network audio device. Unfortunately, both of these modes are are not useable. Only about 20-30% of my tracks will. Weird how in an album some songs will play ok, some get skipped over, and some play with no audio. Mostly FLAC (16-24 bit and 44-48-88-96K files). DSD doesn't play, and oddly low Res MP3 / m4a don't play either. I tried all combinations in the Streamer Configuration setup, but nothing seems to work.

On the subset of songs that would play, I recorded them into a Apogee DAC to my MacBook Pro, so I could do listening tests of the Sense audio out, to the JPLAY (Minimserver, Asset UPnP and Zenith UPnP native mode), and the Sense running audio out to the Nagra Streamer is a tiny bit more wider sound stage and slightly less compressed sounding as compared to the JPLAY version, but only by a small edge. For now, I will stay with JPLAY controlling Asset UPnP on the MAC mini into the Nagra streamer, and hopefully Innuos can work out the UPnP kinks, as I think down the road having the Zenith as a music server running Sense into the Nagra streamer / Tube DAC will be my favorite setup.
 
I've just installed version 3.2.4 on my Statement and am now getting stuttering and jumping on Qobuz replay streamed to my Naim ND555 and Atom HE.

Both are fine playing music stored on the Statement HD and Qobuz streamed from the Naim app or from my Roon Nucleus, so it doesn't appear to be a Qobuz problem but something in the latest release.

None of the system settings for the Statement have been changed.
 
Maybe something went wrong with the install. Though the Statement shows the current version as 3.2.4 the installer tells me a new version is available (3.2.4) and that the version installed in 3.2.3.

I'm installing the new 3.2.4 now.....
 
My update to 3.2.4 went smooth and shows 3.2.4 (and no new install available) on a Zenith Mk3. I retired UPnP but about the same. Mostly not useable in my setup Zenith -> ethernet to Nagra Streamer -> Nagra Tube DAC both using Sense as the control point, or JPLAY.

Went back to Roon Core on the Zenith -> ethernet to Nagra Streamer -> Nagra Tube DAC, and all works extremely well, so I will stay with this setup for now and will retry on future revisions...
 
Still getting the occasional hiccup with Qobuz, but not as bad. Generally a jump to the beginning of the next / track movement, sometimes - but not always - just a few bars from the end. Sometimes you can listen to a whole track, but the problem will occur at least once on an album.
 
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In the case of UPnP, it is always worth a router reboot
I've now tried that, thanks.

Sadly, it didn't make a difference. As a last resort, I shut down and powered down the Statement, then switched it back on and restarted it several minutes later. But that didn't make any difference either.

So, unless I've had another installation glitch, it looks like the latest version has a problem that means it's not really useable for Qobuz with both my Naim streamers.
 
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Hi @michaelb, I have an album of DSF files recorded at DSD64 and these do not stream to the NACn272 when the configure streamer setting is DSD support on. The first track is tried for five seconds and then restarts ad-infinitum. This could be a feature of the Naim 1st gen streamer architecture just as easily as it might be a Sense issue. However, set DSD support to off and the album plays OK. I presume that a format conversion on the Innuos Zen kicks in.

This status also requires the display track data on streamer display is set to off. Turning that setting to on and playback failed.
I have the same problem with a Naim NDS streamer - endless looping of the first 5 - 10 seconds of a DSD track and no sound when DSD support is on, but track plays when DSD support is off.

I agree that a conversion to PCM is probably occurring when the DSD support is off. I have compared playing my DSD files this way with using the USB port on the NDS. To my ears, there is a difference in sound quality - the USB DSD playback sounds better.

It would be worthwhile to get Stephen's comments on what is happening. Are DSD files converted to PCM when the DSD support is off? If so, are they being converted to the Redbook standard or a higher frequency and resolution? Are there any plans to fix this problem with DSD playback for Naim legacy streamers?
 
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I have the same problem with a Naim NDS streamer - endless looping of the first 5 - 10 seconds of a DSD track and no sound when DSD support is on, but track plays when DSD support is off.

I agree that a conversion to PCM is probably occurring when the DSD support is off. I have compared playing my DSD files this way with using the USB port on the NDS. To my ears, there is a difference in sound quality - the USB DSD playback sounds better.

It would be worthwhile to get Stephen's comments on what is happening. Are DSD files converted to PCM when the DSD support is off? If so, are they being converted to the Redbook standard or a higher frequency and resolution? Are there any plans to fix this problem with DSD playback for Naim legacy streamers?
DSD is tricky enough at the best of times, even more difficult over UPnP! The issue may be if it is being sent natively, which from what i understand the Naim does not support. I believe only DoP would be supported, and it actually gets converted to PCM by the Naim anyway? Therefore, there is no penalty in transcoding to PCM before sending to the Naim since the Naim is only doing this internally anyway from what i can tell. I'm not a Naim expert but this is from what i can discern on their forums, but if correct then I am not sure if there is a problem there for us capable of fixing.
With DSD turned off yes there would be PCM transcoding to high-res FLAC - no redbook downsampling unless you have set a low maximum supported resolution.
 
Just an update regarding UpNP & Devialet Phantom. Just received my Stereo set after moving and connected it in our new home. All wired with Ethernet Cat 6a cables. Phantoms are on 2.8.3, Sense is 3.2.4. Compatibility mode causes issues (e.g. not skipping to next title when streaming from Internal HDD). The setup I used before works just fine for me so far (HDD, Qobuz, Radio Paradise Lossless). Compatibility turned OFF, No DSD, Limit to 96000, Display Track data :)
 
DSD is tricky enough at the best of times, even more difficult over UPnP! The issue may be if it is being sent natively, which from what i understand the Naim does not support. I believe only DoP would be supported, and it actually gets converted to PCM by the Naim anyway? Therefore, there is no penalty in transcoding to PCM before sending to the Naim since the Naim is only doing this internally anyway from what i can tell. I'm not a Naim expert but this is from what i can discern on their forums, but if correct then I am not sure if there is a problem there for us capable of fixing.
With DSD turned off yes there would be PCM transcoding to high-res FLAC - no redbook downsampling unless you have set a low maximum supported resolution.
Naim DACs indeed do not support native DSD playback and use DoP instead. However, DoP does not convert DSD to PCM. Rather, it uses the "words" in PCM to package the 1-bit DSD stream, rather than to represent the value of the signal amplitude. Assuming, that Naim is using a 24-bit DAC, then each word will contain 24 bits of a DSD stream.

There are many DACs that use DoP, so it would be useful to know whether people using these are having difficulty with DSD playback when using Sense 3.x with UPnP.
 
I found this regarding newer ND555 from its manual/white paper:
"Streaming from a network, ND 555 is compatible with PCM sampling rates of up to 384kHz and with double-rate DSD (DSD128, sampling rate 5.6448MHz). Because the ND 555’s PCM1704 DAC chips are not DSD compatible, DSD signals are transcoded to PCM within the DSP. First the DSD signal is downsampled to 352.8kHz, 40-bit floating point PCM and low-pass filtered to remove DSD’s noise-shaped ultrasonic quantisation noise. Then it is upsampled to 705.6kHz/24-bit for passing to the DAC stage."
Therefore, even though the Naim 'accepts' DoP it is in fact proceeding to convert to PCM first for the DAC to decode, so it is not playing a 1-bit DSD stream; the Naim still processes as PCM before being converted to analogue. I may be wrong but i believe Chord Electronics DACs have a slightly similar philosophy. Point being; sending DSD creates more work for the streamer because it has to go through more processes to convert it into a PCM signal that it is capable of decoding through its LPCM DAC. Apologies if i have old/incorrect information about the Naim streamer.

 
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Just an update regarding UpNP & Devialet Phantom. Just received my Stereo set after moving and connected it in our new home. All wired with Ethernet Cat 6a cables. Phantoms are on 2.8.3, Sense is 3.2.4. Compatibility mode causes issues (e.g. not skipping to next title when streaming from Internal HDD). The setup I used before works just fine for me so far (HDD, Qobuz, Radio Paradise Lossless). Compatibility turned OFF, No DSD, Limit to 96000, Display Track data :)
It turns out, there are issues now which I did not encounter in January with the first release. Tracks would suddenly skip to the next one while playing Qobuz Playlists. So you listen to a song and suddenly the next one would be played. I happened in 3.2.5 and now in the 3.3.0-14 Beta.
 
These are my current settings. I can’t recall encountering the above issues when the first Sense, which had its own implementation of UPnP, was released. Have there been any changes since then? Since we relocated internationally, I wasn’t able to access my system until this week. Is the “new” UPnP still based on LMS? If so, I might need to make some additional adjustments. If not, it might be related to the calculation of the duration of a streamed track, or a buffer overflow that forces the system to the next track?