signal from Zenith III?

[Willard]

I am having troubles with the active speakers (Dynaudio Focus 10s) to which my Zenith Mk III is connected via a Cat 6 cable. Sporadically, from time to time, the main Focus loses or drops the signal. The Dynaudio advisor has asked me to make sure that the signal coming to it is a standard PCM digital signal - 24 bit / 44.1, 48, 96, 192 Khz. Is this the case always for the Zenith? Forgive my technical ignorance! The Dynaudio man tells me that if the Focus receives anything it is not prepared to handle, a cutout like this will happen. Hence his question. I'd be VERY surprised if the Zenith were misbehaving, much less so if interference via the Cat 6 were the culprit.

Information and/or suggestions would be most welcome.

Willard

 

[Stephen Healy]

I am having troubles with the active speakers (Dynaudio Focus 10s) to which my Zenith Mk III is connected via a Cat 6 cable. Sporadically, from time to time, the main Focus loses or drops the signal. The Dynaudio advisor has asked me to make sure that the signal coming to it is a standard PCM digital signal - 24 bit / 44.1, 48, 96, 192 Khz. Is this the case always for the Zenith? Forgive my technical ignorance! The Dynaudio man tells me that if the Focus receives anything it is not prepared to handle, a cutout like this will happen. Hence his question. I'd be VERY surprised if the Zenith were misbehaving, much less so if interference via the Cat 6 were the culprit.

Information and/or suggestions would be most welcome.

Willard

Hi Willard, if the only connection between the ZENith and Focus 10s is Cat 6, then no - that's not a PCM signal, its just a network data connection, so i assume you are using either UPnP or perhaps Roon for the actual playback control.
The only PCM digital inputs that i can see on the Dynaudios are the Coaxial and Optical inputs. The problem here is that the ZENith only has USB out, so you would need a DDC (Digital-Digital-Convertor) to turn USB into either Coaxial or Optical.
But this should not really be necessary, the Dynaudios appear to be DLNA streaming devices, so their own app should see the ZENith as a UPnP server, or as i say perhaps you are using Roon and this should also be fine.
Also keep in mind that if the speakers are wirelessly connected to one another, and do not have an interlinking cable between them, then maximum resolution supported is 24/96 - anything higher will likely drop out or simply not play.

 

[Willard]

Thanks, Stephen, very much. I have configured the Zenith for UPnP, which the Dynaudios accept. I do have a cable (Chord) linking the speakers for precisely the reason you give. I'm still chasing the problem of an occasional dropout of 3-5 seconds. My Dynaudio advisor suggested I make sure the main speaker is on the right so that the commands sent from the primary to the secondary don't falter. I'll see if that makes a difference.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Thanks, Stephen, very much. I have configured the Zenith for UPnP, which the Dynaudios accept. I do have a cable (Chord) linking the speakers for precisely the reason you give. I'm still chasing the problem of an occasional dropout of 3-5 seconds. My Dynaudio advisor suggested I make sure the main speaker is on the right so that the commands sent from the primary to the secondary don't falter. I'll see if that makes a difference.

Thanks for the extra information. Can't quite account for the dropouts unless this is due to network issues. To make sure i understand:
Dynaudio Main Speakers is connected by Cat6 to ZENith STREAMER 'port'?
And the ZENith LAN port has an Ethernet going back to your router, or a switch?

 

[Willard]

Dear Stephen, thanks some more! You've got the facts: Dynaudio main speaker connected by ethernet Cat 6 to the streamer port of the Innuos; the Innuos is connected by ethernet from its LAN port to my router (actually a node in my mesh network). The mesh software (ASUS Zen) reports and excellent connection to the router. Additional: this evening no dropouts for the TV optical connection to the Dynaudio, no dropouts for the music sent from the Innuos. The change was to move the primary speaker to the right, secondary to the left, as advised. I'll be withholding my judgment for a day or two more.

 

[Willard]

Further report. A very helpful audio engineer at Dynaudio advised me to change the sound output signal of the LG TV from auto to PCM; subsequently no further dropouts from that source. I moved the speakers as he directed; dropouts from the Innuos are now greatly reduced in number but still occur. He speculated that the Innuos might be sending signals the Focus cannot handle, that is > 192 kHz. Testing with a sound track Sense tells me is 44.1 kHz produced a dropout on one playing but did not on three subsequent ones. I'm inclined seriously to doubt that the Innuos could send any high-frequency spikes. Does the finger point to the cat 6 cable?

 

[Willard]

Addendum to the previous, and getting way out of my depth. The Dynaudio man points out that the Focus requires PCM; the offending tack, like much of my audio collection is FLAC. He wants to know if the Innuos can output PCM. Would converting my FLAC files to WAV be a solution? Or am I looking at an additional piece of hardware? I hope these are interesting questions!

 

[Stephen Healy]

Okay, a few things being conflated here I'll try to explain.
TV Audio: In this context 'PCM' i suspect is just two-channel (2.0 or 2.1) which the Dynaudios can process. 'Auto' would have been trying to play 5.1, which probably is incompatible.
WAV/FLAC - these are just containers, when played they are both delivered in a PCM format but only when using the USB output on the ZENith.

The point here is that my original reply is still relevant; PCM playback from the ZENith can only be achieved out of the USB output. The Dynaudios have no USB input. Thus, you need a DDC converter. Something as basic as this would technically do the job, though you can indeed buy more 'HiFi' ones:

AU-D6-384 - USB to Coax Digital Audio Converter: 24-bit 384kHz - CYP

The USB Digital Audio Converter is specially designed to take the audio output from a USB Audio Class 2.0 source such as a Laptop or PC and convert it to high quality 2 channel linear PCM coaxial digital output (S/PDIF) for use with an external amplifier or active speakers with a coaxial digital...

cypeurope.com

 

[Willard]

Dear Stephen,
Continuing thanks. And yet... It seems that when in the Sense app I configure the Dynaudio UPnP streamer's setting with the Hegel H390 profile -- which I stumbled on less than a hour ago -- I get flawless results. I am beginning to wonder if the Dynaudio advisor is oversimplifying for my benefit, or I am simply misunderstanding. Something somewhere is getting lost in translation. Ultimately all that matters to me is that the system works, as it is doing now so very well, though I do want to understand what is involved. Apologies for my misunderstandings and confusions. I wonder, is a 'Dynaudio Focus' profile a possibility?

 

[Stephen Healy]

Dear Stephen,
Continuing thanks. And yet... It seems that when in the Sense app I configure the Dynaudio UPnP streamer's setting with the Hegel H390 profile -- which I stumbled on less than a hour ago -- I get flawless results. I am beginning to wonder if the Dynaudio advisor is oversimplifying for my benefit, or I am simply misunderstanding. Something somewhere is getting lost in translation. Ultimately all that matters to me is that the system works, as it is doing now so very well, though I do want to understand what is involved. Apologies for my misunderstandings and confusions. I wonder, is a 'Dynaudio Focus' profile a possibility?

To be honest i did find it curious that the Focus only accepted PCM - i rather strongly doubted that, as all these kinds of wireless speakers usually have streaming support (AKA not PCM) which is why i did ask originally which control app you were using. Indeed, SenseUPnP should hopefully work fine as well. A profile just for the Focus may be possible if it turns out there are specific setting alterations needed, but if it flawless as you say then probably a 'don't fix what ain't broke' approach is fine and use the Default Profile which is our best attempt at a 'one size fits all' profile.

 

[Willard]

Thanks again. So far so good--with the Hegel H390 profile. I began with the Default profile but experienced dropouts with it, so began experimenting with the others. So far (emphasis here) performance with the Hegel has been flawless. But I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to come up with a profile named 'Dynaudio Focus', perhaps identical to the Hegel, perhaps tweaked, if only to save Focus owners the hassle I've experienced. I admit it's been fun, but other others' mileage might differ.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Thanks again. So far so good--with the Hegel H390 profile. I began with the Default profile but experienced dropouts with it, so began experimenting with the others. So far (emphasis here) performance with the Hegel has been flawless. But I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to come up with a profile named 'Dynaudio Focus', perhaps identical to the Hegel, perhaps tweaked, if only to save Focus owners the hassle I've experienced. I admit it's been fun, but other others' mileage might differ.

It's worth caveating that SenseUPnP is somewhat experimental. In a normal UPnP streaming situation, it is the job of the renderer (Focus 10s) to supply a control app and 'pull' the music files from a UPnP server (ZENith). In an effort to bring convenience to our customers who preferred Sense over other apps, we tried to reverse this process so that the server via its own app (Sense) can 'push' audio to UPnP receivers (like the Focus 10s). Largely this works okay, but it's not quite how UPnP is meant to work which is why you have some of these stability issues. We are planning a revision to the SenseUPnP framework in forthcoming software update 3.1. Appreciate the feedback about results with your Dynaudios nonetheless.

 

[Willard]

The Sense app, like the Zenith hardware, is brilliantly designed. I cannot adequately express how delighted (i.e. blown away) I am by the music that results. It's a quantum leap beyond what came out of the Focus speakers when the music was being pulled from a network NAS I was using. Bravo!

 

[Willard]

It's been almost 2 months since the last. Meanwhile I've upgraded my system with Chord Clearway power cables for the Focus speakers, a Chord PowerHAUS P6 (into which the Zenith is plugged as well as the speakers) and a Blustream AV11 for the HDMI signal from the television. I've further isolated the speaker audio cables physically from the power cables. Result is a drastic reduction in the dropouts. BUT one remains, characteristically long duration (about 8-10 seconds) and tends to occur early in the music-playing sessions. Annoying! Ideas? Otherwise I can testify that the mains power upgrades have made quite a difference in clarity and 3-dimensionality of the sound. (I know people argue ferociously that this is nonsense, but my ears tell me otherwise.) I remain pleased as punch over the quality of music Zenith III + Focus 10 deliver.

 

[Willard]

I should also have said that I've followed the interim upgrades in the Sense app. No complaints at all.
One feature would be welcome: an option to start playing an album somewhere in the middle and have the playback go on automatically to the remaining tracks. I know there's a workaround, so this is hardly crucial, but I am trying to be critical, just not doing a terribly good job of it.

 

[Stephen Healy]

I should also have said that I've followed the interim upgrades in the Sense app. No complaints at all.
One feature would be welcome: an option to start playing an album somewhere in the middle and have the playback go on automatically to the remaining tracks. I know there's a workaround, so this is hardly crucial, but I am trying to be critical, just not doing a terribly good job of it.

That should be the current behaviour where the remaining tracks do play though - maybe down in the playback controls in Sense, if you open up the Now Playing screen to fullscreen then check if your playback controls look like this?


You DON'T want the right-hand repeat symbol in gold with the 1 inside it, it should be plain white. Please double check that because the default behaviour is not to just play one song and one song only when selecting a track that is halfway through an album.

As for the 8-10 second delay you mention, I'm not sure what this is. Do you mean you start playing a track on Sense, and it takes 8 to 10 seconds before the track begins to play properly?

 

[Willard]

Thanks. The dropouts always occur after the track has started playing. Elapsed time from the start of play varies; I observe no consistency in this. But the dropouts once begun always follow the same pattern and length: red light on the Focus steady for about 5 seconds, then slowly pulsing white light for about the same time. So, it is as if I'm dealing with the same cause but randomly occurring. Sometimes it does not occur at all.

With that right-hand repeat symbol plain white, the tracks will play through automatically if select PLAY, otherwise, if I select a single track only it will play. If I select PLAY then select the track where I want to begin, it and the remaining ones will play through. Does this make sense?

 

[Stephen Healy]

Thanks. The dropouts always occur after the track has started playing. Elapsed time from the start of play varies; I observe no consistency in this. But the dropouts once begun always follow the same pattern and length: red light on the Focus steady for about 5 seconds, then slowly pulsing white light for about the same time. So, it is as if I'm dealing with the same cause but randomly occurring. Sometimes it does not occur at all.

With that right-hand repeat symbol plain white, the tracks will play through automatically if select PLAY, otherwise, if I select a single track only it will play. If I select PLAY then select the track where I want to begin, it and the remaining ones will play through. Does this make sense?

I am not sure what the steady red light would refer to, on the basis of this page on LED Status Indicators:

Focus: Indicator colours

The Focus speaker front panel indicators display a variety of colors and illumination patterns to indicate different operational and setup information. This is described in the following table.

dynaudio.com

But either way, this sounds like behaviour to do with the Dynaudios?

 

[Willard]

Dear Stephen,

Thanks, and sorry for the delay in replying. I agree that the behaviour has to do with the Dynaudios, but (I am told by an advisor there) that this looks like a response to an illegitimate transient. I'm not saying (or thinking) that it comes from the Zenith, rather suggesting that it comes from a part of the setup I have that generates the input to the speakers. The Zenith seems to be exonerated by the fact that the TV's sound output (HDMI ARC via Toslink) also seems to be responsible for dropouts when it is the source. I suspect the cables, and so cable by cable am attempting to eliminate sources of EMI, first by using Chords, then by isolating them from the power cables. Occurrences have radically declined in number. There must be a name for such system-level problems difficult or sometimes impossible to trace to a component.

Thanks for lending an ear.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Dear Stephen,

Thanks, and sorry for the delay in replying. I agree that the behaviour has to do with the Dynaudios, but (I am told by an advisor there) that this looks like a response to an illegitimate transient. I'm not saying (or thinking) that it comes from the Zenith, rather suggesting that it comes from a part of the setup I have that generates the input to the speakers. The Zenith seems to be exonerated by the fact that the TV's sound output (HDMI ARC via Toslink) also seems to be responsible for dropouts when it is the source. I suspect the cables, and so cable by cable am attempting to eliminate sources of EMI, first by using Chords, then by isolating them from the power cables. Occurrences have radically declined in number. There must be a name for such system-level problems difficult or sometimes impossible to trace to a component.

Thanks for lending an ear.

Indeed certainly could be an issue to do with power or network - hard to say. Possibly just interference from something? Perhaps just try and space things apart from each other as best you can.
I had a VERY weird instance where I had a large desktop monitor by Dell, and had a Sonos speaker just behind it. The Sonos actually caused interference they gave me chronic image dropouts on the Dell monitor, it turned out. As soon as i moved the speaker away, monitor performs perfectly. Physics!