My experience of the UPnP implementation that came with 3.2 is that while there can be some improvements with some endpoints, and the UI is somewhat simpler, we lost the profiles that worked well with some endpoints. For example, while I was previously able to use a profile for the Oppo 205 that worked rather well, it is now useless. Whether in compatibility or without, Sense loses regularly the Oppo, there is no longer gapless playing whether for local tracks or Qobuz, and in compatibility mode, the playing will not last more than a few seconds. Admittedly, the Oppo 205 has a problematic implementation of UPnP as I do not get good results with the systems I tried: Audirvana and mConnect. So we will have to be patient until Innuos manages to bring back what the profiles where achieving...
SenseUPnP: Feedback Thread
- Thread starter Stephen Healy
- Start date
I found this regarding newer ND555 from its manual/white paper:
"Streaming from a network, ND 555 is compatible with PCM sampling rates of up to 384kHz and with double-rate DSD (DSD128, sampling rate 5.6448MHz). Because the ND 555’s PCM1704 DAC chips are not DSD compatible, DSD signals are transcoded to PCM within the DSP. First the DSD signal is downsampled to 352.8kHz, 40-bit floating point PCM and low-pass filtered to remove DSD’s noise-shaped ultrasonic quantisation noise. Then it is upsampled to 705.6kHz/24-bit for passing to the DAC stage."
Therefore, even though the Naim 'accepts' DoP it is in fact proceeding to convert to PCM first for the DAC to decode, so it is not playing a 1-bit DSD stream; the Naim still processes as PCM before being converted to analogue. I may be wrong but i believe Chord Electronics DACs have a slightly similar philosophy. Point being; sending DSD creates more work for the streamer because it has to go through more processes to convert it into a PCM signal that it is capable of decoding through its LPCM DAC. Apologies if i have old/incorrect information about the Naim streamer.
DSD on Naim Streamers
Hi somehow I have never really felt that dsd was any better flac or wav… it should be … is Naim converting dsd on the fly … don’t get me wrong dsd sounds good but on my ND555 it just does not sound quite as dynamic.community.naimaudio.com
Thanks for this info, Stephan. It would seem that DoP is a way to "smuggle" a DSD stream past a digital interface that isn't set up to deal with this format. What the DAC does after this is another problem, for which there are a variety of solutions. For anyone interested, there's a discussion of this at the PS Audio Forum, who are passionate DSD advocates.
Keeping with the spirit of the thread, here is my current experience using UPnP.
Configuration:
Zen Mk3, Sense v 3.2.5
Naim NDS streamer connected to the Zen by ethernet
Compatibility mode off
Display track data on streamer display is off
In this configuration, WAV and FLAC files and Qobuz play fine.
Single-rate DSD files do not play when DSD support is on. The track progress indicator advances approximately 9 seconds and then loops back to the beginning of the track with no sound.
When DSD support is off, DSD files play. While sound quality is acceptable, subjectively, it is poorer than when I play the same track from a flash drive using the USB A port on the front panel of the NDS.
Keeping with the spirit of the thread, here is my current experience using UPnP.
Configuration:
Zen Mk3, Sense v 3.2.5
Naim NDS streamer connected to the Zen by ethernet
Compatibility mode off
Display track data on streamer display is off
In this configuration, WAV and FLAC files and Qobuz play fine.
Single-rate DSD files do not play when DSD support is on. The track progress indicator advances approximately 9 seconds and then loops back to the beginning of the track with no sound.
When DSD support is off, DSD files play. While sound quality is acceptable, subjectively, it is poorer than when I play the same track from a flash drive using the USB A port on the front panel of the NDS.
Any other Naim ND555 Atom HE owners having problems with Quobuz occasionally skipping to the beginning of the next track on albums?
It was fine for me until the last two beta versions, but a constant now. Not with every track, but regular enough to be a pain.....
Out of curiosity, I am now using the Statement as a Roon Core controlled by Roon and the skipping seems to have stopped....
It was fine for me until the last two beta versions, but a constant now. Not with every track, but regular enough to be a pain.....
Out of curiosity, I am now using the Statement as a Roon Core controlled by Roon and the skipping seems to have stopped....
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Hi to all, after six months or so of not having an Innuos. I am back and recently acquired a demo from my dealer of the ZENITH MK3 which I should be receiving in a day or two. I will be looking to set it up with my DCS Rossini Apex Player. I sub to Roon, Audrivana, and use Mosaic also have a nas 9Synology)set up with MinimServer. I missed having the Innuos.if my audio memory has not failed me I remember it being significantlyclearer/cleaner than my Roon Nucleus one on my network. I have a direct ethernet line from my router/modem . I recall plugging that into the lan and my Silver Dragon Moon USB into the pervious piece (Aperio) now replaced by the Rossini. Any connection tips or items to avoid to get the best sound quality? I plan on using Sense again, I liked it Any thoughts or help would be appreciated. I had some trouble getting the Rossini Player recognized UPnP in Audrivana. got it with help from them, and apple MiniMac setting. Works well now , wondering if I am going to experience some UPnP issues with my ZENITH MK 3 and Rossini? YHX
Hi Anthony, I would say do not use UPnP, and take the USB out of the ZENith like you used to with the Apeiro.
The Rossini is a big upgrade, so accordingly I might suggest you take a look at the ZEN Next-Gen or ZENith Next-Gen as a more equal partner to the DAC. The ZENith Mk3 was released in 2018 and just recently have announced the discontinuation of that product. It is being replaced by a new model called the Stream3.
Zen Mini mk3 - 3.2.5
Plinius Inspire 980
Cannot see the streamer with UPnP enabled. Works ok with audirvana and upnp query detects the streamer and shows it as a media renderer.
Plinius Inspire 980
Cannot see the streamer with UPnP enabled. Works ok with audirvana and upnp query detects the streamer and shows it as a media renderer.
I'm using a Zen Mk.3 and Sense 3.3.0. I stream to Naim NDS and 1st generation Naim Mu-so end points. This query is about the Mu-so, which is configured with Compatibility Mode, DSD support and Display Track data off; maximum sample rate is set to 192kHz.
The problem is that the volume resets to 0 whenever a new track is chosen. Volume will be maintained moving through tracks in an album or progressing to the next track that SmartQ choses; however, if I go to another track manually, the volume resets to zero. This happens regardless of whether the volume was set using the app or the Mu-so remote. Also happens whether I'm using the iOS app or Chrome from a Windows 11 PC to control playback.
Has anyone else using the 1st gen Naim Mu-so experienced this? Any solutions?
The problem is that the volume resets to 0 whenever a new track is chosen. Volume will be maintained moving through tracks in an album or progressing to the next track that SmartQ choses; however, if I go to another track manually, the volume resets to zero. This happens regardless of whether the volume was set using the app or the Mu-so remote. Also happens whether I'm using the iOS app or Chrome from a Windows 11 PC to control playback.
Has anyone else using the 1st gen Naim Mu-so experienced this? Any solutions?
Is there a resolution to this? My Naim ND555 also displays a generic icon but it used to display the album art.
In the spirit of providing feedback i have found the UPnP interface option to be a good thing, especially for SQ compared to USB, however i have ran into some issues noted below.
Gear
Zen Mk3 running Sense 3.3.0 connect to DAC through the ethernet streamer port to DAC
DAC is a WEISS 501 Mk2 connected ethernet to ZEN directly
Zen is connected to a router/switch which connects to my house router for WAN service.
Feedback 1
Radio streaming service and UPnP.
Feedback 2
Gear
Zen Mk3 running Sense 3.3.0 connect to DAC through the ethernet streamer port to DAC
DAC is a WEISS 501 Mk2 connected ethernet to ZEN directly
Zen is connected to a router/switch which connects to my house router for WAN service.
Feedback 1
Radio streaming service and UPnP.
- For normal interface song selection from Qobuz, Tidal and internal HD everything works great.
- When i select a radio streaming service, any one does not matter, it is found and starts up and updates the interface fine.
- Problem arises when i want to stop the service or switch songs to something from Qobuz or what ever else it does not matter.
- The radio stream does not stop. I need to hard reboot either the DAC or my Zen Mk3 to break the connection and internal processes of the Zen to get the stream to stop.
- Even switching to ToslinK, USB or COAX on the DAC does not break the UPnP stream connection.
- Sense becomes uncontrollable.
- I have tried all compatibly settings on Sense with no help.
- The only thing that works is a hard reset (power cycle) of the DAC or ZEN.
Feedback 2
- FLAC song titles display on my DAC which supports this capability
- AIFF files do not display song titles.
- Bit rate information displays for both formats.
- DSD files are not played back properly using UPnP no matter what i configure in the compatibility settings.
- My DAC only supports up to DSD 128 and that is what i am sending.
- I either get music with a strong hiss in the background not unlike Pink Noise or no music / sounds at all.
- I had previously stated that UPnP had much better SQ than USB and this is no longer the case.
- USB is now on par with UPnP as i found a poor cable on the Phoenix USB.
- I am now using USB again as it is more reliable than UPnP.
- Periodically songs when they would begin would crackle and pop, get interrupted momently.
- I am not sure what caused this interruption as it was not consistent. Did not occur before the very latest update where it started to occur.
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Thanks for posting this feedback. It's interesting for me to see that my Naim NDS streamer/DAC is not the only device that has difficulty with DSD files sent from Sense and a Zen Mk III, see my earlier post. This was a comment on Sense 3.2.5, but the behaviour remains with version 3.3.0.
Hi. Is there any progress on UPnP issues. They seem to vary by device which obviously complicates matters, but those were mitigated and sometimes fully addressed through the specific profiles we could select. In the implementation prior to 3.2, I could use my Oppo 205, which is no longer possible because of all the problems arising when I try to select it… Maybe the profiles could be brought back as an option?
Beside InnuOS (Sense) I also use open-source Lyrion Music Server (successor of Logitech Media Server) + Material GUI with the UPnP/DLNA bridge plugin (v3.3.9 from Philippe). I can address your feedbacks more or less, because I encountered similar issues. My solution is to use HTTP-mode "no-length" but this option cannot be choosen in the Sense UI.
See my post #4 where I advised HTTP-mode "estimate". But in the meantime I use HQPlayer Embedded as (intermediate) player to convert PCM to SDM (DSD). And HQPe works flawless with HTTP-mode "no-length". My chain is LMS via UPnP to HQPe, HQPe via NAA to Zenith Mk3 in HQPlayer mode -> Phoenix USB -> Weiss DAC204 -> iCon TVC -> Purifi Class-D mono's -> Lentus Audio Solo TSoW and NoCAB ...
So my advice is to add the HTTP-mode settings to the Sense UI because all UPnP end-point implementations by different vendors can react in a different way.
Below the help page from Philippe in the LMS UPnP/DLNA plugin ...
