SenseUPnP: Feedback Thread

[malfordlad]

Hi Daniel,

I have the same problem with "Graceland" Paul Simon, "Diamonds are forever" John Barry, "Steppin' Out: The very best of Joe Jackon", and "The Singles" Phil Collins. I have only listened to these four albums from Qobuz since discovering the issue.

I started listening to Islands (Deluxe) 16/44.1 by Bear's Den. Track 1 plays well. Track 2 stutters and restarts after 10 seconds and then pauses after about one minute. Play then skips to track 7, whether some of that skip is down to missing track files on Qobuz I don't know yet.

Regards, Martin

 

[Timberwolf]

Can you clarify, if its just this one random Joe Jackson album you're having issues with specifically? Or are there any other albums for example.

Hi Daniel, the problem with skipping seems to happen with any Qobuz album played via Sense. I picked two at random from my Qobuz favourites - Dire Straits "Dire Straits" and Free "All Right Now: The Collection". On the Dire Straits, if I play the album from the start, track 2 stops after 2m and play skips to Track 3, then Track 4 stops after 1m50 and play skips to Track 5, then Track 6 stops after 1m40 and play skips to Track 7. Same behaviour with the Free album, playing from the start Track 2 stops after 1m39 then skips to Track3, the Track 4 stops after 1m50 and skips to Track 5 etc.

Both these albums play without problems using Qobuz Connect playing direct to the Naim streamer.

In addition to this issue with Qobuz albums, I also find that pressing PAUSE does not stop the music it simply causes Sense to skip to the start of the next track and start from there. Then if you PAUSE again, it jumps to the next track again. This is a long standing problem that has never been resolved.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Ian

 

[DanCollier]

Can you confirm if both your Naim systems are up to date? They share the same streaming module and as 3.4.2 was working fine prior, potentially a recent Naim update has modified aspects causing your issue.

 

[malfordlad]

Can you confirm if both your Naim systems are up to date? They share the same streaming module and as 3.4.2 was working fine prior, potentially a recent Naim update has modified aspects causing your issue.

Hi Daniel,
my NSS333 is on firmware release 5.3.0 (which is the latest). Naim hasn't issued new firmware for a year now. I fear that this has been a problem with 3.4.2 since that version of Sense was released. Perhaps @Farthings car may confirm that as @Farthings car had raised it back on page 5 of this thread.
Regards, Martin

 

[Timberwolf]

Can you confirm if both your Naim systems are up to date? They share the same streaming module and as 3.4.2 was working fine prior, potentially a recent Naim update has modified aspects causing your issue.

Daniel,

I too am on Sense 3.4.2 having previously used the prior beta version. I confirm no new firmware changes by Naim. Given that the Qobuz skipping does not occur except with Qobuz via Sense UPnP, I doubt there is a Naim issue here. i guess you could check logs - the skipping I encountered with the Dire Straits and Free albums selected at random occurred between 2145 and 2215 UK time yesterday.

Cheers, Ian

 

[malfordlad]

Hi Daniel,

I have the same problem with "Graceland" Paul Simon, "Diamonds are forever" John Barry, "Steppin' Out: The very best of Joe Jackon", and "The Singles" Phil Collins. I have only listened to these four albums from Qobuz since discovering the issue.

I started listening to Islands (Deluxe) 16/44.1 by Bear's Den. Track 1 plays well. Track 2 stutters and restarts after 10 seconds and then pauses after about one minute. Play then skips to track 7, whether some of that skip is down to missing track files on Qobuz I don't know yet.

Regards, Martin

I replayed the Bear's Den album today. The report is different this time. Track1 plays, track2 skips after 2:04mins to track3. Track 3 plays OK, track 4 skips and so on. Immediately after track 8 skipped, I hit the pause button. Pause works for me. I stepped back to track8 from track 9 and played track 8 all the way through successfully. Track 9 then skips after 2:20 mins.

 

[Timberwolf]

Naim updated their firmware yesterday for the Unity range which includes my ND5XS2. I tested out Sense UPnP and the skipping issues with Qobuz albums - see my post of April 24th - are still present, i.e. every second track stops before the end and jumps to the next track. it does not happen with locally stored music on the Zen Mini. Also, PAUSE still not working consistently and properly in general on the Naim streamer. Any indication when these issues will be resolved? Quite frustrating now.

 

[Malc.]

I noticed today I'm still having issues with Qobuz skipping tracks, stopping after first track etc, I'm using Sense stand alone mode not UPNP.

 

[Timberwolf]

Hi Malc, sorry to confuse. Just to be clear, my Zen Mini Mk3 is in Sense Stand-Alone mode also, and streams the music to the Naim ND5XS2 via ethernet, not sprig or optical. UPnP is not enabled on the Zen. There are only two "modes' possible, Stand-Alone and EndPoint and mine defaults to Stand-Alone as this is my only Innuos box. As I understand it, enabling the UPnP option allows other UPnP software (e.g. Asset etc.) to see the music stored on the Zen and the Naim app is then used to control the play. UPnP is irrelevant to the Sense mode.

In any case, Sense is the only app where I am having issues with Qobuz tracks stopping and skipping, like Malfordlad. Playing the tracks via Qobuz Connect, Roon or the Naim app are all perfect. In addition there is a very long standing issue with Sense and Naim streamers which has never been resolved - namely PAUSE not working correctly, either jumping to the next track or not pausing at all. I do wish Innuos could find a fix for this one! Kind of getting frustrated now.

 

[Malc.]

Hi Malc, sorry to confuse. Just to be clear, my Zen Mini Mk3 is in Sense Stand-Alone mode also, and streams the music to the Naim ND5XS2 via ethernet, not sprig or optical. UPnP is not enabled on the Zen. There are only two "modes' possible, Stand-Alone and EndPoint and mine defaults to Stand-Alone as this is my only Innuos box. As I understand it, enabling the UPnP option allows other UPnP software (e.g. Asset etc.) to see the music stored on the Zen and the Naim app is then used to control the play. UPnP is irrelevant to the Sense mode.

In any case, Sense is the only app where I am having issues with Qobuz tracks stopping and skipping, like Malfordlad. Playing the tracks via Qobuz Connect, Roon or the Naim app are all perfect. In addition there is a very long standing issue with Sense and Naim streamers which has never been resolved - namely PAUSE not working correctly, either jumping to the next track or not pausing at all. I do wish Innuos could find a fix for this one! Kind of getting frustrated now.

Hi Timberwolf, it's ok you didn't confuse me, I also run a Naim Atom HE set up so I'm aware of the issues. There is, certainly for me, confusion around who is responsible for fixing these issues, at first we had Qobuz acknowledging their system migration had caused issues but they were on the case. You correctly highlight problems exist in other areas. Initially Innuos were saying it's a Qobuz issue however user feedback maybe suggests this isn't the full story.
My post was just supporting the position the issue/s remain unresolved.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Hi Malc, sorry to confuse. Just to be clear, my Zen Mini Mk3 is in Sense Stand-Alone mode also, and streams the music to the Naim ND5XS2 via ethernet, not sprig or optical. UPnP is not enabled on the Zen. There are only two "modes' possible, Stand-Alone and EndPoint and mine defaults to Stand-Alone as this is my only Innuos box. As I understand it, enabling the UPnP option allows other UPnP software (e.g. Asset etc.) to see the music stored on the Zen and the Naim app is then used to control the play. UPnP is irrelevant to the Sense mode.

In any case, Sense is the only app where I am having issues with Qobuz tracks stopping and skipping, like Malfordlad. Playing the tracks via Qobuz Connect, Roon or the Naim app are all perfect. In addition there is a very long standing issue with Sense and Naim streamers which has never been resolved - namely PAUSE not working correctly, either jumping to the next track or not pausing at all. I do wish Innuos could find a fix for this one! Kind of getting frustrated now.

As alluded to on other posts, SenseUPnP is completely experimental; it's a feature built around a non-standard idea with a huge number of variables. It's also a constantly moving target; fixes are hard to achieve, and then often undone after a software update on the streamer end. I appreciate it may be frustrating and there are debates about which sounds best etc, but the 'official' connection options are:
1. Activate UPnP on the ZENmini and use the Naim app
2. Connect by SPDIF out of the ZENmini into the digital input of the Naim.

That said, we are still continuing with trying to improve the Naim connectivity with SenseUPnP due to how many users there are wishing for this.

I do believe there are still some issues remaining with Qobuz via partner apps that seems to be on a regional level based on which host server you are connecting to. There seems to be progress here as we have seen reports of these issues suddenly solving themselves over the last few days, so my understanding currently is that this is not something we can fix on our side via a software update.

 

[DanCollier]

Hi Malc, sorry to confuse. Just to be clear, my Zen Mini Mk3 is in Sense Stand-Alone mode also, and streams the music to the Naim ND5XS2 via ethernet, not sprig or optical. UPnP is not enabled on the Zen. There are only two "modes' possible, Stand-Alone and EndPoint and mine defaults to Stand-Alone as this is my only Innuos box. As I understand it, enabling the UPnP option allows other UPnP software (e.g. Asset etc.) to see the music stored on the Zen and the Naim app is then used to control the play. UPnP is irrelevant to the Sense mode.

In any case, Sense is the only app where I am having issues with Qobuz tracks stopping and skipping, like Malfordlad. Playing the tracks via Qobuz Connect, Roon or the Naim app are all perfect. In addition there is a very long standing issue with Sense and Naim streamers which has never been resolved - namely PAUSE not working correctly, either jumping to the next track or not pausing at all. I do wish Innuos could find a fix for this one! Kind of getting frustrated now.

Hi,

Just to reiterate from our previous messages, the second ethernet port is not an audio output like Coax, Optical, USB is. The second ethernet port is simply a bridged network connection intended as a convenient way to connect another nearby device to the network, SenseUPnP would still work even if your Naim was on wifi in another room.

So in your setup, you are indeed using SenseUPnP.

In your case, you would see an immediate improvement in both performance and stability by instead using one of the ZENmini’s direct audio outputs, either coaxial or optical in your case as Naim lack a USB input. This would allow the ZENmini to function as the streamer, with the Naim acting purely as the DAC, which would always be our recommended approach over using SenseUPnP.

The NativeUPnP option which you can toggle when on allows other 3rd party UPnP apps such as the Naim app to see the music library that is on your Innuos server.

 

[Timberwolf]

Dan,

Thx for clarifying SenseUPnP for me. So, If I now connect my Zen Mini to my Naim ND5XS2 via coax (spdif) instead of just ethernet, would this fix the PAUSE issues I have faced for years? And would it fix the Qobuz stopping and skipping issues we currently experience? Appreciate your help.

Cheers, Ian

 

[Stephen Healy]

Dan,

Thx for clarifying SenseUPnP for me. So, If I now connect my Zen Mini to my Naim ND5XS2 via coax (spdif) instead of just ethernet, would this fix the PAUSE issues I have faced for years? And would it fix the Qobuz stopping and skipping issues we currently experience? Appreciate your help.

Cheers, Ian

Hi Ian,
Almost certainly yes! I strongly suggest giving it a try if possible.

 

[Malc.]

Dan,

Thx for clarifying SenseUPnP for me. So, If I now connect my Zen Mini to my Naim ND5XS2 via coax (spdif) instead of just ethernet, would this fix the PAUSE issues I have faced for years? And would it fix the Qobuz stopping and skipping issues we currently experience? Appreciate your help.

Cheers, Ian

I think this will substantially improve things but would be surprised if it fully resolves the issues of stopping and skipping by Qobuz.

 

[guardajoias]

I think this will substantially improve things but would be surprised if it fully resolves the issues of stopping and skipping by Qobuz.

It may well. I have a lot of similar issues with UPnP that I almost never have with LMS…

 

[Malc.]

It may well. I have a lot of similar issues with UPnP that I almost never have with LMS…

Well I don't use UPNP and I still have Qobuz issues of tracks not playing, skipping tracks. It's better than it was but still not 100%. I do agree that switching from UPNP improves both error incidence and more importantly sound quality.

 

[malfordlad]

As alluded to on other posts, SenseUPnP is completely experimental; it's a feature built around a non-standard idea with a huge number of variables. It's also a constantly moving target; fixes are hard to achieve, and then often undone after a software update on the streamer end. I appreciate it may be frustrating and there are debates about which sounds best etc, but the 'official' connection options are:
1. Activate UPnP on the ZENmini and use the Naim app
2. Connect by SPDIF out of the ZENmini into the digital input of the Naim.

That said, we are still continuing with trying to improve the Naim connectivity with SenseUPnP due to how many users there are wishing for this.

I do believe there are still some issues remaining with Qobuz via partner apps that seems to be on a regional level based on which host server you are connecting to. There seems to be progress here as we have seen reports of these issues suddenly solving themselves over the last few days, so my understanding currently is that this is not something we can fix on our side via a software update.

I am a bit confused by the statement that Sense UPNP is experimental. The on line brochure for the Zen Mk3 included Sense UPNP and did not say it was experimental. See last bullet point of the screen shot below. Are we talking about the same feature?

 

[Stephen Healy]

I am a bit confused by the statement that Sense UPNP is experimental. The on line brochure for the Zen Mk3 included Sense UPNP and did not say it was experimental. See last bullet point of the screen shot below. Are we talking about the same feature?

In retrospect, I would like it if we had emphasised this 'experimental' point more in the past, but that ship has sailed. SenseUPnP is something that will always be a work-in-progress whilst trying to cater for new brands/products, and we do have more updates planned to help with Naim systems especially. But the point does remain it is more a feature of convenience than outright performance - reviews on our products, for example, assess the sound quality based on the direct audio outputs (USB usually) as a streamer+server, and not Ethernet/SenseUPnP functioning just as a server. I know i've tried to make that point many times before in the past, but is always worth clarifying!

 

[malfordlad]

In retrospect, I would like it if we had emphasised this 'experimental' point more in the past, but that ship has sailed. SenseUPnP is something that will always be a work-in-progress whilst trying to cater for new brands/products, and we do have more updates planned to help with Naim systems especially. But the point does remain it is more a feature of convenience than outright performance - reviews on our products, for example, assess the sound quality based on the direct audio outputs (USB usually) as a streamer+server, and not Ethernet/SenseUPnP functioning just as a server. I know i've tried to make that point many times before in the past, but is always worth clarifying!

Thank you Stephen for your considered and diplomatic reply. It seems to me there are two SenseUPNP modes - a pull mode where the Streamer's app is used to select music and play - and there is a push mode where Innuos Sense is used to select music and play it on the streamer. The pull mode works well, the only flaws can be established as missing tracks from Qobuz. It is the push mode that we have problems using, and I thank Innuos for continuing to work towards resolving these.