Classical Mode: help needed!

[Stephen Healy]

Would not that be resolved by applying filters as is currently the case when sorting by artist and applying the filter by tags?

It would, but it'd be a comparatively longer process as you would need to make sure you enabled every single tag synonymous with all your classical composers. Having a pre-defined Classical Composers list with the option to sort by Release would, I assume, be a faster alternative. Although one benefit of having the option in the main Albums view as you say would be the ability to make Smart Mixes out of that, however, I would guess Smart Mixes perhaps do not lend themselves well to Classical? Would be great to get insight on that too.

 

[guardajoias]

Yes, but as Stephen mentioned, wouldn’t this already be made simpler by just using the Composer category within the Classical library section. Adding as Stephen proposed a “sort by release” option there would achieve the same result, showing albums associated with each composer while removing extra steps and avoiding the need to apply filters in the main music library view.

Unless I’m missing something here, in which case please do enlighten me.

This is proving an interesting exercise.

Hi Dan. Point taken, but it is a bit unclear to me which will be faster until I see it in action: going into Classical then Composer, then release may or may not be faster that go to Album, sort by Composer and apply thee Classical filter... Maybe it will depend where I am coming from and maybe both options are possible is the case today where you can browse by Album and sort by artist or browse by Artist (and select composer)...

 

[guardajoias]

It would, but it'd be a comparatively longer process as you would need to make sure you enabled every single tag synonymous with all your classical composers. Having a pre-defined Classical Composers list with the option to sort by Release would, I assume, be a faster alternative. Although one benefit of having the option in the main Albums view as you say would be the ability to make Smart Mixes out of that, however, I would guess Smart Mixes perhaps do not lend themselves well to Classical? Would be great to get insight on that too.

Yes, I am not sure which will be faster in practice. In addition to specific tags, I also apply a generic "Classical" tag to all classical music so I would only need apply one filter to get all classical music. Or I could look only at say Baroque composers with that tag...

A classical music smart mix would be great, but currently it does not work too well because of awkward results with tracks expected to play in gapless modes. It would be great if smart mixes could apply not only to tracks but to works...

 

[DanCollier]

Hi Dan. Point taken, but it is a bit unclear to me which will be faster until I see it in action: going into Classical then Composer, then release may or may not be faster that go to Album, sort by Composer and apply thee Classical filter... Maybe it will depend where I am coming from and maybe both options are possible is the case today where you can browse by Album and sort by artist or browse by Artist (and select composer)...

To my understanding, I believe this approach will be faster. Hopefully, we can share some visuals soon to better illustrate our ideas for you all.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Yes, I am not sure which will be faster in practice. In addition to specific tags, I also apply a generic "Classical" tag to all classical music so I would only need apply one filter to get all classical music. Or I could look only at say Baroque composers with that tag...

A classical music smart mix would be great, but currently it does not work too well because of awkward results with tracks expected to play in gapless modes. It would be great if smart mixes could apply not only to tracks but to works...

So Smart Mixes that mix the results on a work level, not a track level. That makes sense and I think is an interesting idea, I am not familiar with any other platforms/apps that could offer this, and we would like to offer some interesting points of difference.

 

[pending]

Would this still work for you on the assumption that it might include a lot of composers from non-Classical artists? For example, in this mode you would get Keith Richards, John Lennon, etc very likely appearing as Composers as well in this view.
An alternative might be that under the new Classical Library section we plan to have a Composers category of which you can ensure is strictly Classical Composers. Perhaps under this section would be a better place to have a 'Sort by Release' option to ensure only albums affiliated to Classical Composers are shown?

I agree, your alternative is a better solution than what I'd proposed. However imo for the sake of consistency it should be labeled 'Sort by Album'.

In hindsight I believe that sorting all albums by Composer is not feasible, for at least 2 additional reasons:
1) The composer tag applies to tracks, not albums.
2) Many Classical albums contain works by multiple composers.

 

[Stephen Healy]

I agree, your alternative is a better solution than what I'd proposed. However imo for the sake of consistency it should be labeled 'Sort by Album'.

In hindsight I believe that sorting all albums by Composer is not feasible, for at least 2 additional reasons:
1) The composer tag applies to tracks, not albums.
2) Many Classical albums contain works by multiple composers.

I agree, I did consider the point that some albums will have multiple composers appear on it. Therefore, in a a full album list of all your composers, the same album could appear multiple times throughout the list, since that album could technically be attributed to multiple composers. But I think that is just the nature of the beast with such a feature, and perhaps not strictly a negative thing.

 

[guardajoias]

I agree, I did consider the point that some albums will have multiple composers appear on it. Therefore, in a a full album list of all your composers, the same album could appear multiple times throughout the list, since that album could technically be attributed to multiple composers. But I think that is just the nature of the best with such a feature, and perhaps not strictly a negative thing.

Indeed, it is useful for the album to appear under each pertinent composer...

 

[Stephen Healy]

So, initial points of consideration from the feedback thus far:

1. An Album List view similar to the existing one, but rather than sorted by Artist it is sorted by Composer.
2. Ability to make a Smart Mix that does randomise included works but does not randomise the tracks/movements within a work, ensuring that a work is properly played in its entirety.
3. More information on the Now Playing screen, to include Composer and the title of the Work.

These would be good additions, so that's good feedback so far, thank you!

Anything else to consider/suggest?

 

[guardajoias]

So, initial points of consideration from the feedback thus far:

1. An Album List view similar to the existing one, but rather than sorted by Artist it is sorted by Composer.
2. Ability to make a Smart Mix that does randomise included works but does not randomise the tracks/movements within a work, ensuring that a work is properly played in its entirety.
3. More information on the Now Playing screen, to include Composer and the title of the Work.

These would be good additions, so that's good feedback so far, thank you!

Anything else to consider/suggest?

That will be awesome. Point 3 is absolute priority (Now Playing info) in my view.

At some point, but maybe at a later stage so as not to delay the excellent additions you are planning, I hope you can also implement:

1. the custom tags/metadata override for Qobuz (and other services as needed) so that Qobuz albums can be included in searches and browsing by composer etc. This is not strictly a classical music issue as it is also a problem to find tracks from Albums added to the Library as whole albums, but it is particularly frustrating when browsing or searching by composer.
2. Ideally we could browse works under each composer, and from there, see available releases, both local and streaming, similar to Idagio or Apple Classical... (see examples below)

 

[pending]

So, initial points of consideration from the feedback thus far:

1. An Album List view similar to the existing one, but rather than sorted by Artist it is sorted by Composer.
2. Ability to make a Smart Mix that does randomise included works but does not randomise the tracks/movements within a work, ensuring that a work is properly played in its entirety.
3. More information on the Now Playing screen, to include Composer and the title of the Work.

These would be good additions, so that's good feedback so far, thank you!

Anything else to consider/suggest?

Great! Features 1 and 3 would be most useful to me.

Btw thank you for soliciting feedback from us. I imagine few of your competitors engage their customers in this way.

 

[d.c.palmer]

I'm a new user - I'm not an owner yet, but currently have a Zen NG on home loan with a view towards the potential purchase of a Zenith NG.

By way of introduction: pretty much ALL my listening is so-called "Classical"; however, I do not - and never intend to - use "streaming" services (many reasons, including ethics). All my music is purchased by me, either ripped from CD, or, increasingly, as high-resolution "digital downloads".

I use an external DAC (Chord DAVE + M Scaler) and until now I've been using a Naim streamer connected to a UPnP (network drive) server. The Naim app is pretty good - and lets me browse by folder, thereby allowing me to bypass many (and they are legion) shortcomings of existing metadata.

1. Firstly, your developers should spend some time seeing how Apple Music handles "Classical" - because they actually do it pretty well these days. If anyone knows how to design a user interface, it's Apple, so that should be your first step.

2. Secondly, as others have so rightly noted, we need to be able to browse by "Composer".

3. Thirdly, we also need to liberate ourselves from "Tracks". Fine for Pop music, useless for "Classical". Instead, we need the concept of:

(a) Work (e.g., Symphony No. 1)
(b) Movement (e.g., Allegro molto).

That means that a multi-work "Album" can be readily navigated, e.g.,

Symphony No. 1
I. Allegro
II. Andante
III. Presto

Symphony No. 2
I. Adagio con grazioso
II. Scherzo
III. Prestissimo

etc.

4. I would like a more effective way of browsing by "Folder". Rival products provide full artwork for folder display, so one can use this to rival "Album" browsing. In the case of the Minim server/streamer that I run on my network drive in combination with the Naim app, I simply need to include a "Folder.jpg" image inside each folder, and the app gives me the right artwork.

- Surely folders are old hat; why not simply use the embedded metadata?

- Because it allows me finer control over how works are presented.

Connoisseurs will likely have many recordings of the *same* work, which we might like to group, e.g.,

Level 1: Verdi
Level 2: Il Trovatore
Level 3: Il Trovatore (Callas, 1956)
Level 3: Il Trovatore (Pappano, 1990)

Level 2: La Traviata
Level 3: La Traviata (Callas 1953)
Level 3: La Traviata (Callas 1955 Live)
Level 3: La Traviata (Callas 1958 Live)
Level 3: La Traviata (Callas 1958 Live Remastered - Warner)
Level 3: La Traviata (Callas 1958 Live Remastered - Myto)
Level 3: La Traviata (Kleiber)

etc.

(yes, I have too many recordings of La Traviata!).

5. A general point is that the app should be able to detect all metadata tags and allow one to group and/or search by them. Things like "Conductor", "Orchestra" - or whatever else is found in the music library.

OK, I think that's all for now, just to sum again:

(a) We need a more elegant, Apple Music style interface
(b) We URGENTLY need to group by Composer
(c) We URGENTLY need the concept of Work/Movement
(d) Folder browsing needs to be a smooth and seamless as browsing by "Album", so we can cross-cut existing categories
(e) Metadata should be handled seamlessly and transparency.

Thanks for your consideration!

 

[Esscee]

#32, has some very good points and well explained.

 

[d.c.palmer]

One other suggestion please: can we turn off the automatic web search for "Artist" details and instead opt to use a local "Album" cover?

This might avoid this kind of travesty:-



i couldn't give a **** about some "Techno/Electronic producer based in Barcelona and Washington, DC". I do, however, care about one of the world's most famous composers, who had the misfortune to share his name.

Now, maybe there is some option somewhere to turn off the "Mess up my library with trash downloaded from the internet", but in case there isn't, please can we have the option to use an appropriate locally-stored album cover for an "Artist"?

(In the absence of a "Composer" grouping, I'm using Artist synonymously with "Composer". This "hack" has been widely used for years by those of us who had to wrangle our classical music to work with iTunes in the early days of mobile music.)

 

[d.c.palmer]

Coming back to my earlier plea (#32) for better folder browsing, let me illustrate the necessity for this using Beethoven as an example.

First, how NOT to do it - this is the Innuos way... My "Classical" folder subdivided by composers. Looks really boring and unrewarding.



2. This is how I'd like it to look. This is the Naim app, using the "Minim Server" application running on a UPnP server. We're in "folder view" and I've split my music library into different folders including "Classical", "Languages", "Jazz", "Humour", etc.

(a) Contents of my "Classical" folder. These are subfolders, which I've manually created, one per composer. Ideally the system would assign an icon based on an album cover, but the "Minim Server" requires me to add a "Folder.jpg" file, which then provides the artwork. Simple and easy to use.



(b) We now dip into my "Beethoven" folder. Because I have so much Beethoven, I've chosen to subdivide by Genre here - but n.b., these are still folders, each with its own icon.



(c) Now we dive into "Orchestral". Again, we're not showing albums; I have too many, so I'm subdividing (manually) by work:-



(d) Finally, we choose a particular work, to reveal multiple recordings of it:-



This works for me, and allows me to organise massive collections of "Classical" music in a straightforward way, without having to use complex metadata. Yes, I can also browse by "Album", but this makes music easier to find. YMMV, but I raise this to emphasize how a plain-vanilla "Folder" view can allow far greater flexibility. Yes, Innuos already has "Browse by Folder", but it's implemented as a second-class option; I'd like it raised to the same level as "Album" browsing, with full artwork.

Having an attractive interface like this is all part of the musical experience. It's why many of us still prefer physical CDs; if Innuos are going to win more people over, they need an interface to match.

Sorry to go on at such length, but I hope the Innuos folks will find this useful.

 

[pending]

One other suggestion please: can we turn off the automatic web search for "Artist" details and instead opt to use a local "Album" cover?

This might avoid this kind of travesty:-

i couldn't give a **** about some "Techno/Electronic producer based in Barcelona and Washington, DC". I do, however, care about one of the world's most famous composers, who had the misfortune to share his name.

Now, maybe there is some option somewhere to turn off the "Mess up my library with trash downloaded from the internet", but in case there isn't, please can we have the option to use an appropriate locally-stored album cover for an "Artist"?

(In the absence of a "Composer" grouping, I'm using Artist synonymously with "Composer". This "hack" has been widely used for years by those of us who had to wrangle our classical music to work with iTunes in the early days of mobile music.)

I appreciate your frustration here but as you acknowledge, using the Artist field in this way is a hack. The Artist field is intended for the performer(s) of the work. Personally I don't want Innuos Sense to equate Artist with Composer.

(The overarching problem, which of course preceded Innuos, is the inadequacy of mp3 tags, music databases eg MusicBrainz, and most streaming services to fully accommodate the complex data requirements of classical music.)

Btw you could continue to use the Artist field and avoid the "Schubert" travesty above, by simply updating the Artist data on your albums from "Schubert" to "Franz Schubert". This can be done quickly via an excellent tool called Mp3tag.app: https://www.mp3tag.de/en/index.html

 

[d.c.palmer]

Btw you could continue to use the Artist field and avoid the "Schubert" travesty above, by simply updating the Artist data on your albums from "Schubert" to "Franz Schubert".

Good points, but re. Renaming, you’d need to add an option to have “Artist” sorted by last name, which I don’t think you have, do you?

(I don’t want to have to search for Schubert under F for Franz)

The solution is to add a Composer grouping

 

[d.c.palmer]

The overarching problem, which of course preceded Innuos, is the inadequacy of mp3 tags, music databases eg MusicBrainz, and most streaming services to fully accommodate the complex data requirements of classical music

Totally agree. And hence my plea to the "Sense" app designers to please make browsing by "Folders" a nicer experience - with full artwork. This then means that we don't have to rely on the limitations of mp3 tags and can instead organise our own music with ease - much as we might rearrange our CD collections.

 

[guardajoias]

The composer field does exist and is extremely useful. It is not currently sufficiently displayed in Innuos Sense, but this is about to change with the new update coming. So this is indeed the right place in my view for composers. I understand the desire for improving folder navigation, but in my view the work needed to tweak the classification by folders is not less than that required to adjust the mp3 tags with a good external app such as Yate on the Mac. Yes albums come with inconsistent tags, but each time I add an Album I make sure the Album name, disk number, Composer, Album artist, Genre, Artists, Works and movements fields are properly written. With a good app, much of this can be done in bulk, and Sense has some good tools allowing for example to merge different spellings of a composer into a preferred spelling.

This approach then allows us to focus on getting Sense to deal properly with the official mp3 tags and display works under composers etc. You can chose how you write the name of the composer (First Last or Last First for example). I write it First Last but some apps can then sort by Last name, and I don't see why Sense could not.

Another benefit of using the proper field for the Composer is that Sense and other apps can find the right illustration for the composer (portrait or photo) and provide a biography rather than use the cover of a random album...

From what Stephen has shown, we should soon see much improved navigation for classical music and I very much look forward to that. All those metadata fields will finally be put to good use.

 

[d.c.palmer]

I understand the desire for improving folder navigation, but in my view the work needed to tweak the classification by folders is not less than that required to adjust the mp3 tags with a good external app such as Yate on the Mac

I think we need both:-

- Better support for existing metadata tags such as "Composer"
- Vastly-better support for browsing by Folder (*)

The problem with relying purely on metadata tags is that they simply do not allow sufficient flexbility - as I tried to show in my screen shots. Sure, for 99% of users with mass market "pop" music, relying on tags is fine. But for the small minority of us with large collections of "Classical" music, organising by folder is a valuable option for personalising a music library.

- and what if I have multiple music libraries that I want to keep separate? (e.g., my wife might want to have her music on the server...) How will browsing by "Album" work here?

(*) This really shouldn't be a big deal. Just change the interface so that each folder can have an image, and have them presented in "icon view" rather than list view (or allow both - the more options, the better).

Innuos has excellent hardware, but given the extremely-high price points of the "Next Gen" series, the software really does need a bit more sophistication and customization please.