Classical Mode: help needed!

[Stephen Healy]

Hi all,

We are currently working on our much-requested Classical Mode to bring to Sense via forthcoming software update.

One aspect of this will be a wider set of metadata being provided during the ripping of a Classical CD. We're working with one of metadata providers to help integrate this for Sense, but they have required some further information from the type of discs that are being ripped.

This where we need you, members of the Innuos forum!

If you have ever ripped any Classical CDs (the more, the better) then we would be greatly helped by a copy of your system logs where we can look through the ripping history and look at some of the Classical content there.
Music that was imported by USB, NAS, or copied over from a PC will not apply; it must be CD ripping history only.

So, if you have ripped Classical CDs on your Innuos server in the past, please could you:
1. On the Sense App on your mobile device or via my.innuos.com on your PC/Mac, go to System > Settings > Download System Logs.
2. This will download a password-protected zip file containing the system logs; please note this may take up to 30 seconds or so to complete.
3. Send these logs for FAO of @Carlos Carvalho in an email addressed to our support@innuos.com

This would greatly help our development of our Classical Music Mode!

Many thanks!

Edited: Seems the logs cannot be sent via forum DM, so support email is fine!

 

[Stephen Healy]

Please note the feature is still in development and there is not a beta running yet, so I will not be able to answer many questions just yet about exact features and expected release date, etc.

 

[guardajoias]

Hi all,

We are currently working on our much-requested Classical Mode to bring to Sense via forthcoming software update.

One aspect of this will be a wider set of metadata being provided during the ripping of a Classical CD. We're working with one of metadata providers to help integrate this for Sense, but they have required some further information from the type of discs that are being ripped.

This where we need you, members of the Innuos forum!

If you have ever ripped any Classical CDs (the more, the better) then we would be greatly helped by a copy of your system logs where we can look through the ripping history and look at some of the Classical content there.
Music that was imported by USB, NAS, or copied over from a PC will not apply; it must be CD ripping history only.

So, if you have ripped Classical CDs on your Innuos server in the past, please could you:
1. On the Sense App on your mobile device or via my.innuos.com on your PC/Mac, go to System > Settings > Download System Logs.
2. This will download a password-protected zip file containing the system logs; please note this may take up to 30 seconds or so to complete.
3. Send these logs to @Carlos Carvalho via the forum using Direct Message and attaching the logs there. Alternatively, if you have trouble with this then you can attach the logs to an email addressed to our support@innuos.com

This would greatly help our development of our Classical Music Mode!

Many thanks!

I sent by email as I do not see a way to attach a file to DM... I can only attach images, links etc...

 

[mikehughescq]

Yes I can’t see any way to attach either so I have also emailed.

 

[cantorgale]

Just emailed my log

 

[ahm]

I send it via mail as it seems to be too big for the forum address

 

[guardajoias]

Hi. I am not sure what is the status of the development for the Classical Mode, but just in case I thought the following screenshots illustrate some of the changes needed, both in the browsing view and in the queue (now playing) view.

This is currently what happens when playing an album from Qobuz that does have some support for Classical Music mainly by showing Works and movements (parts). In the browse view, we can see clearly what is playing and the composer. The same album (still from Qobuz) however does not show the works or the composer in the queue/now playing window so all I can see is that we are playing an Andantino: not useful... (As we know, the same album as a local album, even with all the necessary metadata in Work and Part fields will not show any of this information in the current implementation of Sense in any view, as those fields care currently ignored for local albums).

 

[Stephen Healy]

Hello everyone!
The Classical Mode is still in development, and is at an important stage regarding overall layout and navigation experience. We want to make sure that features/functions are present that Classical-lovers would expect and enjoy.

Here is what we are proposing thus far...

In the main MUSIC tab of Sense, there will be the option to have an expanded section for 'Classical' library. This will look similar to the existing layout where you can browse by Artists, Albums, Tags etc, but will now offer several new browsable categories such as:
- Recordings
- Works
- Composers
- Soloists
- Ensembles
- Conductors

So how do add albums into this special Classical Library? It essentially works like the filtering mechanism in the main library; in other words, you can select from a range of existing tags you may have (Baroque, Chamber, etc) so that all associated music will be categorised under this new Classical section. These albums will then have expanded metadata fields opened up, in accordance with the categories I listed above. If your files already have these tags filled, they will be immediately visible/shown.

This does mean tracks can indeed be grouped into movements/works.
The universal search function will also work across all the categories listed above.
It will be possible to insert multiple performers on a track level, similar to how it is already possible to place multiple Artists on a track.

One thing we have not yet discussed is Disc Title on individual discs within a multi-disc set. Is this significant for Classical libraries?

Something we did discuss is Record Label as I appreciate this can be useful. However, there is not a standard IDv3 tag for record label, so there is not an 'official' way to handle this - the existing tag system may have to suffice for this.
We're working with our metadata providers to open up more of their information to fetch this kind of depth of metadata, but it will not automatically/retroactively apply to existing files in your server. It should, however, apply for subsequent CD rips or Online Lookups.

We currently plan to have the amount of information on the Now Playing screen remain the same, but if you do press the info 'i' button then all this extra metadata will be displayed, so long as its present on the file.

Based on the description above, do you feel this would be a big improvement to experiencing a Classical collection? Are there some obvious features we have missed that would be crucial to navigating a Classical Library?
All questions and comments welcome!

 

[pending]

This sounds good although are you saying we'll have 2 libraries? In other words My Library (as it exists currently) as well as My Classical Library? If so I dislike the concept of having 2 libraries, however perhaps that is the best solution available without a ground-up rebuild of Sense.

 

[Stephen Healy]

This sounds good although are you saying we'll have 2 libraries? In other words My Library (as it exists currently) as well as My Classical Library? If so I dislike the concept of having 2 libraries, however perhaps that is the best solution available without a ground-up rebuild of Sense.

Your library will stay intact as it is. The best way to picture this, is on the Music tab you have your usual selection of categories to browse by, but now you will have an extra at the bottom under sub-grouping of 'Classical' which will include Conductor, Ensemble etc, and here you can actually specify which albums you would like to appear in these categories too. Those albums would not be removed from your overall 'main' library. It's best to think of it as section with advanced browsing modes that is a specific bookmark/focus to your Classical section, since Classical has much more categorisation than most genres.

Our assumption is that users with a lot of Classical music probably still have quite a lot of music from other genres too - pop, rock, jazz, blues etc, almost none of which require things like Conductor, Soloist or Ensemble information. Therefore, Classical does benefit from a more focussed distinction to browse and explore.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Hi. I am not sure what is the status of the development for the Classical Mode, but just in case I thought the following screenshots illustrate some of the changes needed, both in the browsing view and in the queue (now playing) view.

This is currently what happens when playing an album from Qobuz that does have some support for Classical Music mainly by showing Works and movements (parts). In the browse view, we can see clearly what is playing and the composer. The same album (still from Qobuz) however does not show the works or the composer in the queue/now playing window so all I can see is that we are playing an Andantino: not useful... (As we know, the same album as a local album, even with all the necessary metadata in Work and Part fields will not show any of this information in the current implementation of Sense in any view, as those fields care currently ignored for local albums).

To confirm, this is currently in development to be implemented

 

[guardajoias]

Thanks Stephen for the update on your work. Generally, those changes sound indeed very good. The approach of adding the metadata fields for tags associated with the classical mode is excellent. And I would not worry about Disk Title nor record label.

However, there are two important points:

1. It is important that this additional information, including seeing Works etc is show when simply browsing Albums in the Library (for those Albums that have the tags associated with Classical music), and that I not be forced to go into the Music section then Classical then Browse by works etc. I am a bit confused by your description but I hope it is indeed what you plan.
2. It is absolutely essential to adapt the Now Playing view: the current mode is infuriating: when all I see is say "Andante" playing without any indication of the work or composer, it is practically useless. Even iPeng did a better job by showing the composer at least! And the queue should show the tracks grouped under works and more additional metadata. Having to click on the I button is very impractical.

Finally, it is very good that the enriched metadata will be part of universal search. I hope you will also soon be able to add metadata override for Qobuz albums as the metadata is often wrong for genre etc and most importantly because Sense currently ignores the Composer fields for tracks that have been added to the Library as Qobuz albums rather than track by track, unlike the behavior for local albums. Therefore albums in Qobuz do not show in results on searches for composers or track titles unless those name also appear in the album name. So If I search for say Prokofiev's Symphony N°6, the Qobuz albums will not be shown in search results...

 

[guardajoias]

Your library will stay intact as it is. The best way to picture this, is on the Music tab you have your usual selection of categories to browse by, but now you will have an extra at the bottom under sub-grouping of 'Classical' which will include Conductor, Ensemble etc, and here you can actually specify which albums you would like to appear in these categories too. Those albums would not be removed from your overall 'main' library. It's best to think of it as section with advanced browsing modes that is a specific bookmark/focus to your Classical section, since Classical has much more categorisation than most genres.

Our assumption is that users with a lot of Classical music probably still have quite a lot of music from other genres too - pop, rock, jazz, blues etc, almost none of which require things like Conductor, Soloist or Ensemble information. Therefore, Classical does benefit from a more focussed distinction to browse and explore.

Hopefully, this means that for those albums that have tags designated to work with additional metadata, the fields will show up under all browsing options and remain invisible for those tags that are not designated. If I browse by Artist, and select an album, if it is designated, the additional metadata will be visible, if not, it will be as currently displayed.

 

[Stephen Healy]

Thanks Stephen for the update on your work. Generally, those changes sound indeed very good. The approach of adding the metadata fields for tags associated with the classical mode is excellent. And I would not worry about Disk Title nor record label.

However, there are two important points:

1. It is important that this additional information, including seeing Works etc is show when simply browsing Albums in the Library (for those Albums that have the tags associated with Classical music), and that I not be forced to go into the Music section then Classical then Browse by works etc. I am a bit confused by your description but I hope it is indeed what you plan.
2. It is absolutely essential to adapt the Now Playing view: the current mode is infuriating: when all I see is say "Andante" playing without any indication of the work or composer, it is practically useless. Even iPeng did a better job by showing the composer at least! And the queue should show the tracks grouped under works and more additional metadata. Having to click on the I button is very impractical.

Finally, it is very good that the enriched metadata will be part of universal search. I hope you will also soon be able to add metadata override for Qobuz albums as the metadata is often wrong for genre etc and most importantly because Sense currently ignores the Composer fields for tracks that have been added to the Library as Qobuz albums rather than track by track, unlike the behavior for local albums. Therefore albums in Qobuz do not show in results on searches for composers or track titles unless those name also appear in the album name. So If I search for say Prokofiev's Symphony N°6, the Qobuz albums will not be shown in search results...

No, you would not be forced to browse by the Works category specifically; within an ordinary Album view you would see the tracks grouped into relevant Works. Or do you mean when scrolling through all the overall albums, each 'tile' has Works information listed underneath it?

 

[Stephen Healy]

Hopefully, this means that for those albums that have tags designated to work with additional metadata, the fields will show up under all browsing options and remain invisible for those tags that are not designated. If I browse by Artist, and select an album, if it is designated, the additional metadata will be visible, if not, it will be as currently displayed.

Correct - even under the normal Albums view as you have now, relevant albums that have the Classical 'switch' enabled will have these extra metadata fields displayed

 

[pending]

One feature I'd love to see -- not necessarily as part of the forthcoming Classical navigation -- is being able to sort all albums in the library by Composer (via the same pulldown that now contains By Album, By Artist, By Added Date, By Date.)

 

[guardajoias]

One feature I'd love to see -- not necessarily as part of the forthcoming Classical navigation -- is being able to sort all albums in the library by Composer (via the same pulldown that now contains By Album, By Artist, By Added Date, By Date.)

Ideally this would include Qobuz albums as well and not only local albums …

 

[Stephen Healy]

One feature I'd love to see -- not necessarily as part of the forthcoming Classical navigation -- is being able to sort all albums in the library by Composer (via the same pulldown that now contains By Album, By Artist, By Added Date, By Date.)

Would this still work for you on the assumption that it might include a lot of composers from non-Classical artists? For example, in this mode you would get Keith Richards, John Lennon, etc very likely appearing as Composers as well in this view.
An alternative might be that under the new Classical Library section we plan to have a Composers category of which you can ensure is strictly Classical Composers. Perhaps under this section would be a better place to have a 'Sort by Release' option to ensure only albums affiliated to Classical Composers are shown?

 

[guardajoias]

Would this still work for you on the assumption that it might include a lot of composers from non-Classical artists? For example, in this mode you would get Keith Richards, John Lennon, etc very likely appearing as Composers as well in this view.
An alternative might be that under the new Classical Library section we plan to have a Composers category of which you can ensure is strictly Classical Composers. Perhaps under this section would be a better place to have a 'Sort by Release' option to ensure only albums affiliated to Classical Composers are shown?

Would not that be resolved by applying filters as is currently the case when sorting by artist and applying the filter by tags?

 

[DanCollier]

Would not that be resolved by applying filters as is currently the case when sorting by artist and applying the filter by tags?

Yes, but as Stephen mentioned, wouldn’t this already be made simpler by just using the Composer category within the Classical library section. Adding as Stephen proposed a “sort by release” option there would achieve the same result, showing albums associated with each composer while removing extra steps and avoiding the need to apply filters in the main music library view.

Unless I’m missing something here, in which case please do enlighten me.

This is proving an interesting exercise.